Being Vegan

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LittlePinkFaery
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by LittlePinkFaery » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:01 pm

ikickshins wrote:LPF, do you know of any studies done on humans that showed statisitically significant results for any of the potential harmful effects? The only ones I could find were on animals like rats, or were inconclusive or had really sketchy designs. I eat a lot of tofu, so I'd be very interested in reading them :)
still looking into it- I have read enough of how all the oestrogen in it is not good for you- but I have read heath articles and journals online- but not found out enough as yet. I know if effects females oestrogen levels- actually decreases them even though it is full of it! t can cause low sperm count in men and cause them to grow moobs.

But as for solid scientific studies- I can't provide you anymore at the moment!

I mean, from what I have read- occasional intake of it is not too bad ( like anything really) but everyay consumption if where hormone levels build up.

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Re: Being Vegan

Post by IKickShins » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:04 pm

Ah. Then I shall keep up my tasty tofu diet until there's more to it than hype :)
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MissAnthropik
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by MissAnthropik » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:08 pm

iamdolleyes wrote: as far as dairy, dairy comes from milk products (be it cow, goat, sheep)...eggs come from birds (chickens, geese, ducks, etc)
from an allergy standpoint, the difference is very important. i'm not using any 'vegetarian' terminology, just straight erm "correct" terminology....from a farm or ingredients position. it's kind of strange to me when people refer to eggs as dairy..never has a cow on my grandparents farm laid an egg! :lol: :lol: heehee

i hear ovo/lacto over here, though it's not used much except in classification. i don't hold much with labels as they only mean as much as the person using them wants them to. i eat what i eat, and make it very clear what i cannot, and can only do that by using exact foods and food groups :D
Yes, I understand what "dairy" means strictly, I am just saying that there is a difference between strict use of language and functional use of language. I can see from an allergy standpoint you would the strict language, but in common parlance people often use the functional form. For instance, a fruit is anything with seeds inside, so a tomato is a fruit, but we call it a vegetable as that is how it is commonly used. Over here people with "dairy" allergies are usually called "lactose intolerant", so I guess maybe that is why we tend to use the functional form of referring to eggs as dairy more than happens in canada/US.

As for the ovo/lacto thing, when I was in america (I have only been to 3 states in the south, so maybe it is different elsewhere) if i said I was vegetarian then it was assumed i didn't eat any animal derived products (ie what we in the UK would call a vegan), to get eggs or cheese I had to refer to myself as ovo/lacto vegetarian.
madii wrote:I was always under the impression that vegan = no animals products whatsoever and vegetarian = no meat or meat-derived products (e.g. gravy). There are just so many variations and it's all down to your own personal ethics and blah and blah and blah. I just call us "picky eaters", hee.
The easy way to think of it is that vegans will not use any animal derived products, it is also not a diet it is a lifestyle, so they will not use animal derived cosmetics or household products, or wear any animal derived fibres (wool, silk etc), as well as not eating animal derived foods. Vegetarians are happy to eat anything so long as it didn't die to get on your plate.

As for "picky eaters" most vegies and vegans that I know are the least picky people. There isn't anything I won't eat except meat/fish. Most of the other vegies I know are the same, whereas I know plenty of meat eaters who don't like this or don't like that. When doing a dinner party there are a couple of my friends who are meat eaters who make the whole process far more confusing than my vegan friend does. I have to remember all their likes and dislikes and weird combos they will and won't eat. You take all that into account and then they complain about the lack of meat! :lol:
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MissAnthropik
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by MissAnthropik » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:14 pm

ikickshins wrote:LPF, do you know of any studies done with phytoestrogens on humans? The only ones I could find were on animals like rats, and phytoestrogens are supposed to have different effects on different species so injecting rats with lots of phytoestrogens doesn't really help with the "soya = bad for humans" thing. Maybe like longitudinal studies on people with a lot of soy in their diets? I eat a lot of tofu, so I'd be very interested in reading them :)
The things I have read say that it can lower male sperm count, so should be avoided by men who are trying to have a family. Also, it can cause problems in some women as phytoestrogens are far less potent than natural oestrogen, but the phytoestrogen bind to the oestrogen receptors thereby blocking the oestrogen, but what is blocking is a lot weaker than what would normally have been taken up by the body. This is a problem for some women, but not all (namely women who have high levels of oestrogen either simply because they have an imbalance, or because they are taking a hormone affecting drug such as the contraceptive pill or HRT). Some women with low oestrogen purposefully eat a lot of phytoestrogens to combat the symptoms of the menopause.

It has also been linked with certain cancers, but I would definitely want to read more on that, everything can give you cancer after all
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Heiaken
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Heiaken » Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:54 pm

I'm not vegan or vegetarian (I'm sorry I like my steak and gravlax too much) but I try to make at least one vegan/veggie dinner once a week.
Here's one my favourite recepies:

Lentin and spinach soup
makes four servings

5 desiliters of green lentils
1,5 liters of water
2 tee spoons of olive oil
2 onion, chopped
2 cloves of carlig, chopped
100 grams of spinach, sliced (I've used fresh and frozen, borh work fine IMO)
1 tee spoon of cumin powder
1 tee spoon of lemon zest
1 vegetable stock cube
salt and pepper to taste

rinse the lentils. stir-fry the onions, cumin and carlig in the oil about two minutes. add lentils and the vegetable stock cube and water for last.
cook under the lid about 30 minutes. season with lemon zest, salt and pepper. add spinach as the last step.

very easy and very good and quite cheap also :) lentils have quite a lot of protein and fiber that's über good to your stomach.

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Re: Being Vegan

Post by IKickShins » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:18 pm

MissAnthropik wrote:
ikickshins wrote:LPF, do you know of any studies done with phytoestrogens on humans? The only ones I could find were on animals like rats, and phytoestrogens are supposed to have different effects on different species so injecting rats with lots of phytoestrogens doesn't really help with the "soya = bad for humans" thing. Maybe like longitudinal studies on people with a lot of soy in their diets? I eat a lot of tofu, so I'd be very interested in reading them :)
The things I have read say that it can lower male sperm count, so should be avoided by men who are trying to have a family. Also, it can cause problems in some women as phytoestrogens are far less potent than natural oestrogen, but the phytoestrogen bind to the oestrogen receptors thereby blocking the oestrogen, but what is blocking is a lot weaker than what would normally have been taken up by the body. This is a problem for some women, but not all (namely women who have high levels of oestrogen either simply because they have an imbalance, or because they are taking a hormone affecting drug such as the contraceptive pill or HRT). Some women with low oestrogen purposefully eat a lot of phytoestrogens to combat the symptoms of the menopause.

It has also been linked with certain cancers, but I would definitely want to read more on that, everything can give you cancer after all
I know there are a lot of articles that say that kind of stuff, but I can't find many studies on humans that backs it up -- only on mice, rats, pigs, etc. So far, the only studies on humans that I've found say that soya products might be beneficial for menopausal women, that they can be bad if you have preexisting thyroid problems and not enough iodine intake, and that there may be a positive correlation with memory loss in people over 65 (but that study also found a correlation with high amounts of fruit and memory loss). I've mostly been looking through the most recent articles on phytoestrogens at PubMed.
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by iamdolleyes » Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:46 pm

there's some decent reading over at http://www.mercola.com against soy, although they seem to like to focus a bit more on the 'toxin' side of soy as a food than the phytoestrogen content..however they often have a lot of citations in their articles, which is uncommon online i find
there are some sources through googling....but you really do need to take them with a grain of salt, research citations, etc

as far as articles go, i found this recently and i really dig the information and historical aspect of food and digestion..a good read (if long) for all eaters, not just veggie heads
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magaz ... wanted=all
for a quick summary, read the top and bottom - though the middle is very interesting (IMO)

missanthropik i think we have a regional difference of language here :) good to know the language i would need in the uk though! :) although here there are 'lactose free' dairy products made for people with lactose intolerance, and i still cannot have those..so i need to be sure there is no milk products at all in a food, or in very very small amounts..it's a pain >__<
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Heiaken
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Heiaken » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:46 am

iamdolleyes wrote:there's some decent reading over at http://www.mercola.com
although here there are 'lactose free' dairy products made for people with lactose intolerance, and i still cannot have those..so i need to be sure there is no milk products at all in a food, or in very very small amounts..it's a pain >__<
Lactose intolerance and milk allergy are actually too different conditions. In milk allergy your body reacts to the protein in the milk and in lactose-intolerance your your intestine systems lacks or has very little of lactase entzyme that allows your body to metabolize milk sugar. When looking world wide the abitily to metabolize lactose is more of an anomality than an illness because it's more common for adult people to have low levels of the entzyme.

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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Rhaeniel » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:46 am

This whole soy/oestrogen thing.. it's a bit complicated.
I found it helped me a lot to cut it out completely - which is far more difficult than you'd think! It's in EVERYTHING! You get soy flour in most breads, cakes and soy lecithin is used in a whole load of things as an emulsifier.. anyway, I found it helped me because I have endo. So that's not to say it is necessary for everyone to avoid it, but I think if you're already getting plenty of it in cakes and bread, then you have milk or anything containing milk (milk is full of oestrogen too) and then you eat tofu.. then you're probably getting a bit too much eostrogen... but it really does depend on the person. I think the only thing to do is to judge for yourself how it makes you feel. If you're getting very heavy, painful periods, then this can be a sign of something more serious like endometriosis (it can be all sorts of other things too, not just endo, so don't panic!).. then if you cut down on the soy products and you see an improvement (like I did - a vast improvement!) then that's great. If not, then I wouldn't worry about it.

The other issue with Western-produced soy isn't the phyto-oestrogens.. as far as I've been able to gather, when soy is fermented it removes most of the toxins naturally present in the bean, but there is some wastage. In the West, we hate to waste anything that could be saleable, so instead of fermenting it, a lot of soy products go through a process of acid - alkali - acid washes in an attempt to remove the toxins. Apparently, this process not only fails to remove all the toxins, but it actually produces other toxins.
I'm not aware of what these toxins are, but suffice to say that a build-up of any toxins in the body is probably not a particularly good thing.. so I try not to buy bread or biscuits which contain soy-flour and I make my own cakes using almond flour (or wheat flour now that I'm preg and not currently on the endo diet).

As I think someone else has also mentioned, excess oestrogen in a boy's diet can lower his sperm count.. so I'm really trying to avoid soy right now in case this little one is a boy!
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by iamdolleyes » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:27 pm

Heiaken wrote:
iamdolleyes wrote:there's some decent reading over at http://www.mercola.com
although here there are 'lactose free' dairy products made for people with lactose intolerance, and i still cannot have those..so i need to be sure there is no milk products at all in a food, or in very very small amounts..it's a pain >__<
Lactose intolerance and milk allergy are actually too different conditions. In milk allergy your body reacts to the protein in the milk and in lactose-intolerance your your intestine systems lacks or has very little of lactase entzyme that allows your body to metabolize milk sugar. When looking world wide the abitily to metabolize lactose is more of an anomality than an illness because it's more common for adult people to have low levels of the entzyme.
yes, i know. i was responding to a comment about lactose free products for milk allergy, which isn't helpful for anyone but those with lactose intolerance :P

RHANIEL that's exactly the kind of stuff they are talking about when i've been looking up soy! i found some stuff discussing that topic back and forth on mercola..which is kind of interesting. you might find it interesting as well :D
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by MissAnthropik » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:11 pm

I didn't actually know that about the milk allergy vs lactose intolerance thing, that is interesting. It probably explains why most products over here have a little box which has the dietary/allergy info on it. They say things like "may contain nuts", "produced in a factory which handles nuts", "contains soya" etc, and they say whether things have milk products in. I guess people with a milk allergy look at that, as well as in the "free from" section.
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Allexiyah » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:19 pm

Im considering going veg, i dont like the terms tbh. I just dont really like meat, im not going to brand/name myself a Veggie, i prefer quorn to meat and i cant stand pork. Not keen on beef or gammon, a little bit of chicken maybe and thats it! I simply don't like it! Why label it... actually yeah why is it called vegetarianism? (sp)

You choose not to eat meat - why? why do vegetarians name themselves, why do some choose to try and convert other people when eating meat is and has been done since the beginning of man. Your body shouldnt really choose to dislike meat - surely it would want you to eat it given the nutritional values meat gives.

Why do you choose to stop eating meat/dairy?

Sorry to crash Lorny :P hats off to you if you do choose to go vegan, i could never ever give up cheese/brie!

Again sorry for the questions, and im tired so my typing/english is abit pants and i probably should of worded everything better! Im just curious why, and why name it - i see the name as a restricton. When you say im vegan, that means youve banned meat, dairy etc - why? Why not just say you dont eat it.

God i hope this makes sense, not attacking anyones beliefs im just curious as to why!

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Re: Being Vegan

Post by LittlePinkFaery » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:35 pm

even though I don't eat meat I can't deny some of the health properties. but it is a simple fact when we eat less meat and more grains and veg- we were better off- we actually lived longer (despite very little medical care) prior to meat becoming cheap and popular.

Simply we are better off with veg and roughage than meat. this means we can do without it. Yes man has always eaten it but we are not carnivores we are omnivores- meaning we can leave it out.

We make ethical choices- we treat our animals far more cruelly than we used to- the mass production of meat has meant there is little care for the animal with chickens being the worst treated of all. From my understanding cattle, pigs and sheep are slaughtered very young too.

I am veggie because I don't agree with how they are slaughtered and how they are kept and how young they are killed.

Why do I label myself? Because you have to in society- from going to a friend who is cooking for you, to going out ,to work meals and so on. People understand labels.

It is not a hard transition at all- I was a huge meat eater when I was younger- loved it. I don't miss it at all. I would never go back to eating meat- the smell of it makes me feel sick now.

I don't preach to others- in fact I rarely go into it at all. It is my personal choice to make a stand against the meat industry. I won't allow meat to be cooked in my house but I don't make a fuss if friends order a meat pizza in or I go out for a meal with meat eaters.

I feed my dog meat and I prefer to buy fresh cooked meat for him- or human mince (not mince made out of humans, I am not Mrs Lovett!) Because Chickens are the worst kept of all, I won't feed him chicken. I feel odd buying meat for my dog- but he is a carnivore and it is my decision to keep him so I have to feed him right.

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Rhaeniel
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Rhaeniel » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:57 pm

littlepinkfaery wrote:even though I don't eat meat I can't deny some of the health properties. but it is a simple fact when we eat less meat and more grains and veg- we were better off- we actually lived longer (despite very little medical care) prior to meat becoming cheap and popular.
I just mentioned this in a different thread (where it was a response to what someone else said, but really wasn't that OT, so.. er.. oops!)
Anyway, I totally agree that we were better off - people eat FAR too much meat nowadays. People were lucky if they could afford one chicken a week for their entire family to have a roast on a sunday. Now that people have more money and meat is cheaper, people still have this residual feeeling that meat is a luxury, something to strive for in their diet.. and now they can buy loads of it, they eat far more than they need.

I make loads of veggie meals and I'm not a vegetarian by any means - I just think it's not only better for you but cheaper to eat less meat. Also, because we eat less meat, my hubby and I can afford better meat. We only buy meat from our local butcher where we know it's good quality.
Many days, we don't even eat any meat at all. If we happen not to have any meat in the fridge one day, we'll do a curry with chunks of curry and potato in it.. or we'll do a stir fry with nuts or quinoa.


Oh! I just remembered the best find ever - for anyone trying to avoid dairy (or pretty much any allergen udner the sun!) there's a really nice pre-made curry sauce from the free-from section in most supermarkets.. the brand is Safe To Eat and they make a bunch of different things, but I can only speak for the korma sauce.
They really do have pretty much nothing in them that could cause an allergy - the "free-from" list on the back is the longest one I have ever seen! Not only that, but it's lovely! It tastes just like any other korma I've ever had (not as creamy as some, but then there's no dairy in it!) it contains coconut cream instead of dairy and it really is good :)
So yeah, it's a great option for veggie curry if you don't have time to make your own dairy-free (or whatever-else-free) sauce :)
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by MissAnthropik » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:21 pm

You choose not to eat meat - why?
Most vegetarians are so for ethical reasons, I personally disagree with the conditions animals are kept in and some of the practices which are done to make them as profitable as possible with no regard for their lives, I also disagree with the conditions at the slaughterhouses. I also think that animals create large amounts of waste which I disagree with, as well as polluting waterways and producing methane, the worst of the greenhouse gases. Animals also require feed and water which could be used to feed humans, they also take up space which could be used to grow crops to feed humans on (obviously this is mainly happening in poor countries, but the meat comes to western countries, so we are also destroying other people's communities with our meat filled diet), rainforests are being chopped down to provide grazing land for cattle. In terms of fish - farmed fish live in cramped conditions and are bred to be different from natural fish, but then they escape and mate with natural fish, but they have characteristics which they are passing onto their offspring which is not compatible with life in the wild. Wild caught fish can destroy sea beds, and species are becoming endangered. We are eating the fish far more quickly than they can replace themselves. Farmed fish and shellfish in asia have a lot of antibiotics used in them, the water can turn toxic through the combination of lots of faeces and antibiotics, this can cause human workers to become ill, it also causes the waterways in poor countries to become polluted. On top of all this I firmly believe that a) we do not need to eat meat and b) we are healthier (except in a very few cases) if we don't eat meat. Even if none of that were true I just do not believe we have the right to kill an animal. If we actually needed to eat meat things would be different. So my views are mainly ecological and humanist (notice particularly how we f*** over poor people in developing countries), and also animal rights.
why do some choose to try and convert other people when eating meat is and has been done since the beginning of man.
I would never try and convert people unless they bring up the issue of why I am vegie, in which case I would explain my views (emphatically) but wouldn't be trying to tell them what to do. Assuming there is somehting intrinsically right about eating meat just because people have done so for a long time is called the naturalist fallacy - not everything that is right or good has been done for time, and not everything that has been done for all of time is right/good. In philosophy things that are subject to the naturalistic fallacy should be argued in a different way. Also not all "men" have eaten meat since the beginning - in the very beginning meat was hard to catch and formed a small portion of the diet. In more modern times in Japan they didn't eat meat as they didnt have native cattle etc and were surrounded by fish, so that's what they ate, meat has been introduced very recently from the west. Many societies on the indian subcontinent have been and still are entirely vegetarian, to them it is far more natural to not eat an animal than to eat one.
Your body shouldnt really choose to dislike meat - surely it would want you to eat it given the nutritional values meat gives.
Most vegetarians are not so because they don't like meat. I used to be one of the biggest meat eaters before I decided it was wrong to eat meat. All of the health benefits of meat can be derived from non-meat sources, if you are eating it from those why would your body need it from elsewhere?
Why do you choose to stop eating meat/dairy?
So I think I have explained about meat. Other animal derived products are similar - vegans do not simply not eat meat and dairy - they actively avoid any animal product in all parts of their life. It is a lifestyle not a diet. They do not believe we should be able to exploit animals for our own gain - they don't eat honey or things coloured with cochineal, they don't eat eggs, milk, cheese etc, they don't eat things with gelatine in (most sweets amongst other things), they won't wear wool, leather, or silk. They avoid products containing beeswax etc etc. Many do not even keep pets. Many vegetarians will also avoid some or all of these things depending on their own personal beliefs. I only eat organic dairy and eggs, and try not to buy leather or silk.
Im just curious why, and why name it - i see the name as a restricton.
The name is absolutely a restriction - it says "I believe this so much I never do it". This is good socially - it sends a clear message to others that maybe there is something to think about and to be taken seriously. It is also good psychologically - you feel empowered when there is a label to what you do, it also helps you to stick to it, if I just didn't eat gelatine sometimes what motivation would there be to not buy sweets with gelatine in, I would just think, "oh next time I won't buy those", but that next time might never come. People impose many rules on their own lives and live by them. It helps you stick to it, and it helps you feel better about it if you do stick to it. People do this about all aspects of their lives. Many people label themselves with a made up label just to themselves so they know what they can and can't do. It stops you making rash decisions when you are emotional. If you decide you are not going to buy anything this month that is much easier than deciding you will cut down, inevitably you will spend almost as much as normal or more, and feel guilty cause you broke a rule you didn't really understand - you have to tell your brain things, not the other way round!
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by ScarletLady » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:12 am

i call myself a vegetarian generally rather than a pescatarian - i only eat tuna and prawns tho - not all fish (not quite sure why - any other meat or fish makes me feel incredibly sick). it's just easier.

most of the cooking i do is vegetarian. try this chilli of my own invention (which is actually vegan...i think) it's one of my faves :D

2 onions chopped
2 gloves garlic chopped
1 red chilli 1 green chilli chopped (deseeded etc)
1 tin tomatoes
1 tin red kidney beans (can use dried this is just easier)
2 tbsps tomato puree
pinch of sugar
1 lime (juiced)
fresh coriander
paprika, sea salt and cracked black pepper

fry onions garlic and chillis in olive oil. add tomato puree, sugar, lime juice, paprika, salt and pepper and fry until translucent (it smells great at this stage). Using a blender, blend the tomatos and about a third of the kidney beans. Add to the onions, stir and add the remaining kidney beans. Season to taste and cook on a low/medium heat for about half an hour. Just before serving add fresh coriander.
Serve with rice, salad and home made guacamole (mash the flesh from two avacadoes, mix with two crushed cloves of garlic, the juice of one lemon and loads of black pepper)

this is one of my favorite meals - i usually have it with tortilla wraps so if you could get vegan ones of those i guarantee it's YUMMY!!

*EDIT*
thought i'd add this gravy recipe - i'm not sure if a couple of ingredients are vegan friendly so sorry if i'm wrong but you may be able to substitute

1 large onion chopped
2 sticks celery finely chopped
recipe uses a knob of butter but i've used oil before when i haven't had any.
plain flour
1/2 tsp english mustard
1 tsp marmite (not sure if vegan friendly)
1 tbsp dark soy sauce (can use more soy sauce instead of marmite if you like)
1 pint veg stock (i use marigold swiss vegetable bouillon - i'm sure they do a vegan and low salt option)
salt/pepper
thyme

fry onions and celery in quite a bit of oil (you need to make a roux). add enough flour to make the roux thick and cook til golden brown. add the mustard. slowly add the vege stock stirring constantly. add the marmite, soy sauce salt pepper and thyme. cook until mixture thickens. You can either serve it like it is or liquidise it. it's delicious and is perfect for vege roast dinners - freezes brilliantly if you want to make batches of it
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Pixie_Junk » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:25 pm

MissAnthropik wrote:
Rhaeniel wrote:That's the same with fish, isn't it? If you're veggie but you eat fish, then some people say you're a pescitarian or something?
I think in the UK we just have veggie or vegan - otherwise it just gets a bit confusing ^_^
I think that goes a bit beyond that though... Nobody actually thinks a vegetarian can eat fish, that doesn't make any sense, but there are plenty of people who describe themselves in that way, that is just because that is an easier way to express what you choose (not) to eat. If you said "pescatarian" lots of people wouldn't know what you meant, and if you said, "I don't eat meat, but I do eat fish" for a start it's a bit of a mouthful, but when you do that (I know cause that's what I was for a while before I became properly vegie) people say, "Oh so you're a vegetarian who eats fish?" lol!

Whereas in the US a vegetarian is what we call a vegan, and a ovo/lacto vegetarian is what we call a vegetarian.
That's why I say I am veggie. I eat fish but I really, really dislike meat & meat products. For some reason if you say you eat fish people assume it is fine for them to do things like cook your food in animal fat etc, which to me, it is not. Not many people know the term Pescatarian or what it means =P


& One of my exs was Veggie and then Vegan. She found it a little difficult making some changes, but eased them in slowly so it wasn't a huge change straight off. & Learning more Vegan recipes will make it much easier too. Just replace more and more of what you cook with delicious vegan meals instead. We used to love cooking together, plus it helped me learn more of the things she could & could not eat =) Might be an idea for breaking your boy in to it as well. A few people here have mentioned health food shops- they really are fantastic. You shoud still be able to buy your basics from Sainsbury though...

I think I could be vegan and be happy with it, but I have never really wanted to be, if I'm honest. The food is actually very good, but I would never be able to give up ice cream. Terrible but true.
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ScarletLady
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by ScarletLady » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:37 pm

lol i'm like that - i would never be able to give up cheese!
NEVER!

the thought horrifies me :shock:
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by princessOfpOi » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:13 pm

MissAnthropik wrote:
You choose not to eat meat - why?
Most vegetarians are so for ethical reasons, I personally disagree with the conditions animals are kept in and some of the practices which are done to make them as profitable as possible with no regard for their lives, I also disagree with the conditions at the slaughterhouses. I also think that animals create large amounts of waste which I disagree with, as well as polluting waterways and producing methane, the worst of the greenhouse gases. Animals also require feed and water which could be used to feed humans, they also take up space which could be used to grow crops to feed humans on (obviously this is mainly happening in poor countries, but the meat comes to western countries, so we are also destroying other people's communities with our meat filled diet), rainforests are being chopped down to provide grazing land for cattle. In terms of fish - farmed fish live in cramped conditions and are bred to be different from natural fish, but then they escape and mate with natural fish, but they have characteristics which they are passing onto their offspring which is not compatible with life in the wild. Wild caught fish can destroy sea beds, and species are becoming endangered. We are eating the fish far more quickly than they can replace themselves. Farmed fish and shellfish in asia have a lot of antibiotics used in them, the water can turn toxic through the combination of lots of faeces and antibiotics, this can cause human workers to become ill, it also causes the waterways in poor countries to become polluted. On top of all this I firmly believe that a) we do not need to eat meat and b) we are healthier (except in a very few cases) if we don't eat meat. Even if none of that were true I just do not believe we have the right to kill an animal. If we actually needed to eat meat things would be different. So my views are mainly ecological and humanist (notice particularly how we f*** over poor people in developing countries), and also animal rights.
why do some choose to try and convert other people when eating meat is and has been done since the beginning of man.
I would never try and convert people unless they bring up the issue of why I am vegie, in which case I would explain my views (emphatically) but wouldn't be trying to tell them what to do. Assuming there is somehting intrinsically right about eating meat just because people have done so for a long time is called the naturalist fallacy - not everything that is right or good has been done for time, and not everything that has been done for all of time is right/good. In philosophy things that are subject to the naturalistic fallacy should be argued in a different way. Also not all "men" have eaten meat since the beginning - in the very beginning meat was hard to catch and formed a small portion of the diet. In more modern times in Japan they didn't eat meat as they didnt have native cattle etc and were surrounded by fish, so that's what they ate, meat has been introduced very recently from the west. Many societies on the indian subcontinent have been and still are entirely vegetarian, to them it is far more natural to not eat an animal than to eat one.
Your body shouldnt really choose to dislike meat - surely it would want you to eat it given the nutritional values meat gives.
Most vegetarians are not so because they don't like meat. I used to be one of the biggest meat eaters before I decided it was wrong to eat meat. All of the health benefits of meat can be derived from non-meat sources, if you are eating it from those why would your body need it from elsewhere?
Why do you choose to stop eating meat/dairy?
So I think I have explained about meat. Other animal derived products are similar - vegans do not simply not eat meat and dairy - they actively avoid any animal product in all parts of their life. It is a lifestyle not a diet. They do not believe we should be able to exploit animals for our own gain - they don't eat honey or things coloured with cochineal, they don't eat eggs, milk, cheese etc, they don't eat things with gelatine in (most sweets amongst other things), they won't wear wool, leather, or silk. They avoid products containing beeswax etc etc. Many do not even keep pets. Many vegetarians will also avoid some or all of these things depending on their own personal beliefs. I only eat organic dairy and eggs, and try not to buy leather or silk.
Im just curious why, and why name it - i see the name as a restricton.
The name is absolutely a restriction - it says "I believe this so much I never do it". This is good socially - it sends a clear message to others that maybe there is something to think about and to be taken seriously. It is also good psychologically - you feel empowered when there is a label to what you do, it also helps you to stick to it, if I just didn't eat gelatine sometimes what motivation would there be to not buy sweets with gelatine in, I would just think, "oh next time I won't buy those", but that next time might never come. People impose many rules on their own lives and live by them. It helps you stick to it, and it helps you feel better about it if you do stick to it. People do this about all aspects of their lives. Many people label themselves with a made up label just to themselves so they know what they can and can't do. It stops you making rash decisions when you are emotional. If you decide you are not going to buy anything this month that is much easier than deciding you will cut down, inevitably you will spend almost as much as normal or more, and feel guilty cause you broke a rule you didn't really understand - you have to tell your brain things, not the other way round!

Many of the reasons I am vegetarian are explained by MissAnthropik above, another, (and possibly one of the most important to me) is the fact that I would not want to go and slaughter an animal myself, prepare it and so on to eat. In my (personal) view, this is hypocrisy on my part and something that I'm really not comfortable with at all.

I'm a semi strict vegetarian I suppose, I don't consume fish, gelatine, or broth etc, and have given up cow's milk and eggs on their own, but I am still eating things that contain them, but this is something I'm working on. I try and buy most things second hand and not to waste anything at all, as over consumerism is not much good either. I think as a whole people are rather detached from where their food comes from, but education about such things is getting better, and if people still choose to eat meat, albeit ethically, my view is that doing something is far better than doing nothing at all.

I don't like Quorn or general meat subsitutes very much, and prefer 'burgers' and such, if I have them , to be the bean or 'cobbled from various vegetables' type. I've found with this particular dislike that I've learned to cook well because of it, and to try new things, and as an omnivore my diet was pretty limited..

Another interesting point I thought about the other day is how I make such an effort to include things in my diet now I'm vegetarian, yet as an omni, I just assumed I was getting everything I needed.. I feel much better now I have to say.. :)

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Re: Being Vegan

Post by [Tank] » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:17 pm

This is actually something I've been considering for a little while, I've been vegetarian for just over a year and a half and veganism just seems to make sense to me.

Luckily, my grampa is vegan (and has been for over 20 years) so I've got a great resource and all that jazz 20 minutes away from me.

I know it's going to be hard - and medusa thanks so much for that veganessentials link, haha, giving up gummy sweets was the hardest thing I could think of :P

And a recipe for chocolate ice cream I nicked from my grampa.
Ingredients
400ml soya milk
100ml sunflower oil
3 tbs unsweetened cocoa powder
25ml maple syrup
2 tsp vanilla essence.

Freeze 275ml of your soya milk in ice-cube trays until frozen solid.
Then put the remaining 125ml soya milk together with your other ingredients in a blender and give it a wizz to mix together, then add your frozen soya milk cubes and blend again until completely smooth.

If it's a little soft put it into your freezer for half an hour or so before serving :D
It lasts well too, just remember to defrost it for half an hour/hour before breaking it out.
Last edited by [Tank] on Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by MissAnthropik » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:23 pm

princessOfpOi wrote: Another interesting point I thought about the other day is how I make such an effort to include things in my diet now I'm vegetarian, yet as an omni, I just assumed I was getting everything I needed.. I feel much better now I have to say.. :)
Yeah, most vegetarians actually have far better diets than meat eaters because on the whole they eat a wider variety of foods, and so get a better mix of nutrients, they also tend to eat more fresh fruit and veg.

Several studies are beginning to find evidence to suggest that vegetarians live longer than meat eaters. The only problem with these studies is that often vegetarians are generally more interested in their health and living healthy lifestyles, so it is impossible to determine whether it is the lack of meat that is the good thing, or whether there is no difference between meat eaters and vegetarians provided that both groups eat a similar amount of fresh veg, take exercise etc. On this point though, meat eaters who are concerned about how their diet affects there health will generally eat less meat than those who are not bothered.
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by LunarLim3Light » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:30 pm

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/stores/uk/index.php

I don't know how far these are from where you live. I work at Whole Foods which caters toward vegans/veggies. It is expensive but if you go with the store brand you can find some good prices. I'm not sure how the UK stores are different from the US ones.

But not everything that is considered to be vegan or vegaterian is good for you. People come into the store all the time thinking something is healthy because it has no animal products. Very wrong. Things can be extreamly high in salt and other things. Our most popular item in the deli, one portion is equivalent to eating a loaf of bread. :shock:

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Lorny
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Lorny » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:38 pm

Mmmm, these recipes look tasty! I'll be trying them out, especially that lentil one from Heiaken. :D

Ermm... I seem to have started a big old debate of some description...! :lol:
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Spikey555
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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Spikey555 » Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:48 am

Just found this thread, i'm Vegan, hullo =)


Tank: That ice-cream sounds devine :shock: I must try this soon, very very soon. -Nod nod-




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Re: Being Vegan

Post by Velvet_Volcano » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:45 am

To be honest, everything you eat unless it's grown / made etc: completely by yourself may have something damaging in it.
As soon as I move out I will be eating less substitutes, and I hardly eat any now.
It's difficult to trust anything you eat these days.
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